As a condition for wearing the scapular and receiving these benefits, the Catholic must say certain prayers every day. So can Casti Connubii and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and a lot of other teachings of the Church. Headed for zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It is a funny thing that the RCC admits there are ‘real’ Christians outside its authority, which I find curious if indeed they alone claim to have all the fullness of truth in faith+practice…, So, the argument now seems toothless I guess. Indulgences must be declared by the Pope. Politics: the Church is much bigger than any political party and does not instruct Catholics to vote for a specific party. Martha, I am confused about your “Top Ten” list. “There were four of you,” I said. I wrote above that I wouldn’t defend since Martha put this out as a venting session. Then we’ll have to change the name from Internet Monk to Martha of Ireland’s domain. That being said it still does not erase the past. I think Devin’s take is spot-on. You see, these former Catholics weren’t protesting over the basic nuts and bolts of the Faith, they were protesting specific rules of the faith. Would it have been better to keep them as a ‘traditional’ acceptance without the official doctrinal declaration that now makes it obligatory belief+practice??? No getting around that as official teaching. In fact, the Council of Florence declared that “no food, which society admits, is to be condemned”. Sure, Jesus is THE Mediator. Yes, we are inconsistent. for what the pope could manage a century earlier. :^). Goretti!) Catholics believe that if a person denies any of these solemn decrees, they are committing a mortal sin – the type of sin that sends a person to hell. It’s an amazingly complicated argument over something that is so trivial a difference. That’s fine, but why should someone accept your theological ideas over, say, the Catholic Church’s? Lutherans, Episcopalians, and Eastern Orthodox all drink too, yes, even at parish picnics. “I believe in the holy catholic Church” is enough for me. So is the eucharist (we Baptists don’t like to say eucharist; it’s a Catholic thing) only a reminder? Yup – no sacraments and no infant baptism – and they were hunted by the Calvinists just as fervently as the Jesuits…. Why can’t we take into account the Grand Upward Sweep of History and the Ever-Increasing Rate of Progress and the advancements of science and medicine and general knowledge of the world and its composition, not to mention the toils of scholars in literary theory, criticism, history and related arts, and just quietly shed the nutty stuff that served its purpose as metaphors for the uneducated back in the unenlightened times, as a butterfly emerges from the chrysalis of its former state? We would confess a Lord who is truly God, truly man, and truly pastry. While the Catholic spiritual writers I read offer much food for thought, the reality of the local parishes does not match the pages of the books. Institutional authoritarianism: You are right. I should note that I have been given this impression mainly by people on the internet. Darn why did I check this at close to 1:00 AM… . See my comment below…. Pleasure of itself is neither good nor bad. The king on the other side would have his bishop excommunicate your leading figure. Do Buddhists go around proclaiming that they saw giant images of Buddha appear in the sky? Tammy Faye Bakker Messner has been dead since July 2007. Which probably explains why Confession and Adoration were available. ), or the physical remains of a saint (a bone, a hair, a limb, etc.). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13). Tell that to Bishop (no, I won’t distinguish him with the silly label Archbishop–talk about an honorific title with little real meaning) Chaput, to say nothing of the folks on the Catholic forum I used to frequent. When God the Son becomes incarnate and becomes the express image of the invisible God (Heb 1:3), … “Just look at the names of some the churches,”. Getting tired. The faith once delivered is the faith once delivered. On many issues there is disagreement, even argument, but this one just leaves Protestants scratching their heads. Whether you come from the Society of St. Pius V (who broke with the Society of St. Pius X for being too liberal) or the Giant Papier-mâché Puppets of Doom wing of Holy Mother Church, this is an opportunity for you too to get stuck in to your co-religionists. PS Number zero: Sacred monkeys in the Vatican. You have to go through serious verbal gymnastics to distinguish in spoken pronunciation between ‘The Holy Catholic Church’ and ‘The holy catholic church’. What are the 5 actions of the Catholic Church? You want ’em…fine. When it comes to government representatives supporting abortion that is a possibility as they in affect excommunicate themselves…. 10) Indulgences (a recently revived practice for buying your way out of hell) I ask this sincerely, not polemically. Was faith+practice & the proclamation of the good news ever meant to be so complicated??? Lets face this fact. But we “mediate” for each other when we pray for each other, when we “intercede” for each other. Male only priests: Church does not have the authority to alter that. 2. the unchanging nature of the deposit of the faith. The idea behind it is that certain acts of holiness can take the place of punishment. Sacraments, particularly communion is withheld to protect the person not receiving from eating and drinking their own condemnation. ; ). The Catholic Encylopedia says: In the early Church virgins wore a cincture as a sign and emblem of purity, and hence it has always been considered a symbol of chastity as well as of mortification and humility. Is each one more important than the last? Faith Alone — and Young Earth Creationism and Pre-Trib Rapture and Voting Straight-Ticket Tea Party and Shepherding and Spiritual Warfare and latest Christianese Pop Culture Knockoff and…. I am almost never that overt and rude, but after his display I couldn’t resist. 1. The Pope must be making a decree on matters of faith or moralsII. It’s a myth Lee. Sometimes the Church makes it easy for those who are lazy in their faith just ot use it as a checklist (i’ve gone to Mass and did my duty – don’t have to think about it till next week). 4) Hypocracy – the list is endless All that flamboyant frilly stuff. The practice of abstinence & fasting in Lent & other times can be traced to Paul’s letters, on subjecting his body to his spirit. The Church Opposes Science: The Myth of Catholic Irrationality. 3. , over the top, and bombastic. The Catholic Church defines three conditions under which the Pope is infallible: I. Lost the URL long ago, but there was some sort of blog or website for novelty-song parodies of it. In fact I could not have joined the church if it was perfect in all it’s theology and teachings, that’s like claiming that scripture is inerrant. This is impossible, of course, because he’s not fit for it, and eventually he ends up – after bouts of drinking and falling ill – being taken in by the monks and given a pity job as a kind of under-porter, halfway between being a lay man and being a religious, and (through the character of Sebastian’s youngest sister, Cordelia, telling Sebastian’s uncomprehending friend Charles about where he ended up and in what state), Waugh forecasts his life: unexceptional save for his periodic falls off the wagon and shame-faced return to the monastery, years going by like this, getting older, becoming something of a joke to the novices and tolerated affectionately by the older monks, “a familiar figure pottering round with his broom and his bunch of keys” and “He’ll  develop little eccentricities of devotion, intense personal cults of his own; he’ll be found in the chapel at odd times and missed when he’s expected” until his eventual death which will be no more edifying nor uplifting than his life and the best his sister can anticipate for him is that “Then one morning, after one of his drinking bouts, he’ll be picked up at the gate dying, and show by a mere flicker of the eyelid that he is conscious when they give him the last sacraments. I toy with swimming the Tiber, because I agree with about 90 percent of Catholic doctrine. Always good to hear from you. I will stipulate, however, that I would have this grievance against most Christian Churches. I know you are in Ireland and all but do you know about the comedian David Letterman on U.S. television? Any reading guide you could give us would be greatly appreciated. But the style of Latin used by the Church still differs in notable ways from the (believed) pronunciation of Caesar-era Latin, deriving as it does from a later, less literary form of the language (zing!). Or perhaps you don’t see WHY. Would you stay there if you came to the conclusion that it was teaching serious doctrinal error? I am especially terrified of the whole concept of mortal sin. The Catholic Church does not make doctrine or dogma by popularity or polls. I was at a high school graduation party and had pulled together a bunch of seniors to play volleyball (I’m use to doing this with my kids – and the seniors looked bored anyway) and in the middle of the game up walks the local Campus Life guy to pull a couple of them away to ask about their relationship with Jesus (he announced it loud enough). How do we know which was the true Church and which were heretical schisms from the true Church? They’re one of the groups labeled monophysitic. This was really offensive (and in bad taste) when I was at a funeral and the priest made it clear–crystal clear–that non-Catholics were not welcome to receive it. Exactly. But the most remarkable development of all is to be seen in man’s stupendous progress in the domination and rational organization of the forces of nature to the point that he is endeavoring to extend this control over every aspect of his own life—over his body, over his mind and emotions, over his social life, and even over the laws that regulate the transmission of life.”. I’ve slowly been reading Tom Howard’s Evangelical is not Enough (HUG turned me on to that) and he (Howard, not HUG) makes a bit of sense with that interpretation of the Lord’s Supper (communion, mass, eucharist, whatever). Can we add Devin Rose to the ten things we dislike about the RC church? This is not some fake nostalgia (all my nostalgia is real and freshly-picked from verdant green meads, dew-wet under the Spring morning sunrise!) I spent too long studying classical Latin to see it as anything other than awful grammar and pronunciation. You are probably also committing a mortal sin. See All are welcome to join us in that confession of faith. There would have been no gossip. Everybody was around the altar consecrating with the priest as I recall. perpetual virginity, Immaculate Conception, and assumption) are found in the early centuries yet there was never any opposition to them. But I have found a lot of internet discussions in which lay Catholics explain that disagreement really is not acceptable from anyone who is capable of reading and understanding the Catechism. The anathemas _don’t_ apply anymore. 2, especially toward the end, sums up a lot of the reasons why my folks left the Catholic Church when I was a kid. Leaders of the Catholic Church in Iowa said Tuesday that they would not resume offering a public Mass despite a decision by Gov. Consider that if the Church did NOT have authority (where you previously suggested that the Church’s authority was a problem) then She could not correct such problems. Sorry, Holy Father, you may be encouraging us that beautiful art is a doorway to God, but we still have a long way to go to get back to the glories we once took for granted. Cheezy Mexican pop music, and you can hear it from blocks away! Ditto on abortion. When that came up in a Reformation history class years ago I had recently read 1984 for the first time, and Loyola didn’t go over well with me. This means that when the Pope is speaking on matters of science, he can make errors (as we have seen in the past with issues such as Heliocentricity). Liberals hate the conservative ones (which is all of the ones in recent memory), conservatives distrust a system in which some future leader can wave his hand and presto! The insistence that Transubstantiation is different from Consubstantiation. 11) Accountability – rather, the COMPLETE lack thereof…also falls under the Arrogance category, WOW….that was easy… I know there are a lot more….but it is a start. it was that unmistakeable Holy Spirit nudge one Sunday at Mass…, my exit was not simply my rational approach at weighing the good+bad+ugly of RCC faith+practice. You forgot gay equality even something so trivial as civil unions was fought tooth and nail by the local Archdiocese. I am familiar with the Letterman lists, but this is nothing of the kind, Bob. Of the Church. 4. Easy: Trent Canon 4, Canon 7, Canon 9, Canon 11, Canon 12, …. women priests or whatever. Too much ‘stuff’ getting in the way of what was simply credited to Father Abraham. I don’t think you can prove that word, “completely”. Do Protestant really, truly believe in “faith alone”? etc. The same church encouraged men to have accountability partners, to whom they would confess their sins, and then they could pray for forgiveness together. The flagrum is held in one hand and thrown over the shoulder in order to cause the cords to strike the flesh. “I decided some time ago that all denominations have a tendency toward cultist behavior, and what truly matters is how each one responds to and comes to a knowledge of Christ.”. It has always been a source of great joy to them, even though it sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships. I would sing, but ugh! The pain was more pronounced in the middle of the left hand, so much so that I can still feel it. It takes a whole lotta grace and faith not to repear juciy stories…it seems to be human nature. Catholics believe that when a person sins, they have two punishments to suffer – eternal (Hell) and temporal (punishment by suffering on earth or in Purgatory). “Here I am Lord”? Communion in the Catholic Church is open to Catholics and Orthodox. showing up to three little children under dubious circumstances, ummm not so much…. Yes, and he also anticipated with great relish the imminent arrival in Hell of his bete noire, Boniface VIII. Consider some of the benefits of Sacred Tradition enjoyed by Protestant denominations such as the concept of the Trinity, books accepted as part of the Bible, the notion that the books of the Bible are inspired by God, worship on Sundays, construction of a physical church, wedding vows and celebrations, Christmas celebration, etc. At that time, I did not feel I could say that about their views of gender or creationism. Austin kool-aide is what is drunk in the reform camp. More fun to come in Part Deux, same Bat-time, same Bat-channel! And as for the Pedofile/pedastry fiasco… there are so many safeguards in place these days in my diocese (I am intimately involved here since I do work for them as my “other job” ahem I meant vocation) that I believe we are far ahead of the curve than other faith traditions. The Church cannot ignore these questions, for they concern matters intimately connected with the life and happiness of human beings. I also understand Eagles position, I’ve been scarred by fundamentalism, just in a different faith. If he sins, in his own deed or omission, then he needs to make atonement and sacrifice. For edification of the massmind, “Gather Us In” is a notorious lightweight entrance hymn that was popular a few years ago. It’s ironic that they’re trying to kick the gays out, because if gays were to start their own religion, it would probably look a lot like Catholicism. Yes…Protestants have an extreme misconception about this, as a general rule…. Note Objectionable Grin of Romanist Triumph —> . The booklet claims that the Catholic Church dropped the "Second Commandment" which forbids "graven images", i.e. With our communion I think we make much ado about nothing if we don’t take it more seriously than remembrance. A famous theologian’s head may be his most important relic. , Lauri Lumby 8) ARROGANCE – “The fullness of the truth.” REALLY????? The difference between one who becomes Catholic and one who remains Protestant is not that one examines the evidence and uses his judgment while the other doesn’t. Following on from the above, thanks to the dreadful state of catechesis in the English-speaking world (and I’m not so sanguine about other areas either) over the past thirty-something years in the wake of the much-abused Second Vatican Council, most Catholics (unless you meet a convert, who actually had to learn and remember all this stuff before we’d let them in the door so we could hit them up with the collection envelopes) haven’t a bull’s notion of what exactly the doctrines and dogmas of the Church are, despite being dragged to Mass every Sunday and holyday of obligation plus going to some school founded, run or staffed by nuns or brothers. This only occurs the first time a person wears one. If only many of them were reading that deeply…I can respect the questions then…many though just aren’t interested or catechized enough to give the rational argument. The Church does not claim that the popes are not gods, nor are they perfect. We are not foisting anything upon you. The Catholic Church claims that it is the oldest Christian Church in the world, dating back to Jesus himself. , (NOTE: the smiley faced indicates humor, in case you took that seriously, just trying to teach a little web etiquette before I get yelled at). What if, then, He protected the Church He founded from error in her teachings (in spite of the sins of the Church’s members)? In recent years the cilice has gained a great deal of publicity due to the book The Da Vinci Code in which it is worn by the main antagonist of the story – though in the story it is exaggeratedly described as causing wounds. The same church encouraged men to have accountability partners, to whom they would confess their sins, and then they could pray for forgiveness together. Also, where do you get your knowledge about who Christ is? Catholics I would suggest are subjective about what is sinful as well. I don’t know if open communion is an ABC thing or not. (“The Inquisition, what a show…”), 8. Let me catagorically second what Martha is saying about Humanae Vitae and the Chruch’s teaching on contraception. Catholics believe that after the words of consecration have been spoken by the Priest, the bread (host) and wine change their substance to become the body and blood of Jesus. Truth cannot contradict a truth. Devin, thanks for the response. If you’re at 90% agreement, you’re doing a lot better than a significant chunk of the people lining up to receive Communion. Anyway, some of these assumptions may have been a little off? Of course, if Jesus came and you could sit down with Him and He explained truth to you, you would want to believe Him. These were the rightful leaders of Christ’s Church. Nowadays there are few places where the church still wields anything like this power, and frankly I am glad I don’t live in one of those places. First, I should make sure we’re using the same language when talking about bad language. You would not believe how crazy this drives some people inside the Church, for equal and opposite reasons. I came to know Christ the hard way. 7) Hierarchy, Patriarchy, Monarchy But I will give some input to point number 1 – in reality the church really leans more democrat or liberal – mostly because from my point of view the democrats are looking to take care of the poor and infirmed, support universal health care etc. Either way, you weren’t American Evangelical du Jour. Yet that does not obviate the ministerial priesthood. It would amount to a new incarnation, a new hypostatic union. He does not need to inherit any kind of sin tendency. This one was done a month or so ago, and it was great fun (don’t forget, Part II still to come!) I am interested in those thoughts as well. (And thanks to Daniel and the other guys for their kind support.). Archbishop Chaput is down the line, orthodox bishop and he makes lots of liberals mad. Marian dogmas are essentials for Catholics but doctrines develop and private devotions, even the Rosary, are personal, private devotions and you can ignore them. That is relativism and a contradiction (i.e. Allegedly the Catholic Church condones statue worship. In fact, the decision to remain celibate occurs before the ordination to the diaconate and cannot be changed. it was not a Luther-like list of grievances i wanted RCC officials to address. But I’ve also talked to Catholics who have scars from their past as well. I honestly … Me, I hate the Episcopalians for their 39 (or is it 49?) He succumbs to his alcoholism, goes abroad to lead a dissolute life with pathetic little attempts to make some kind of a go of things and finally ends up in Morocco trying to join a monastery because he wants to be a missionary to lepers or cannibals or savages of some description. I found his timing to be terrible and selfish. Enough said. How I do hope that at least a few of us pastors and priests make it to heaven, so we can get all the answers, once and for all! It is important to note that parts of the saint that were significant to that saint’s life are more prized relics. THe Church teaches that all persons are to be respected because of their humanity. One piece of wool rests on the back while the other piece rests on the chest. Institutional authoritarianism. These provisions were renewed by Pedro II at the Council of Gerona (1197), and death by burning was decreed against the heretics.”. An item that the saint wore (a sock, a shirt, a glove, etc.) The massacre of the Waldenses. All I wanted to say was your opening was a hoot and I had to check to see if it was truly you or if Jeff Dunn was using a pen name. . And for me – who actually likes to mingle with the mainline protestants, my only real pet peeve the other way is that when I am found out (that I am one of those Catholics, by a non-denom or a pentacostal) I get to listen to all the faults of my heretical church (especially those ex-catholics) instead of a nice discussion on scripture. Yes, I misspelled Lutheran. I’m not sure I could have even kept it together through that, I can’t even stand guitars in service anymore, and I make the damn things!!! New dangers came during the Middle Ages. And don’t you dare do “Spanish song to a faux Mexican melody” — that’s what all the local “thump-truck” sound systems blast out at 200 decibels! Marriage is defined as a sacrament or covenant between one man and one woman and is permanent, a sacrament that cannot be repeated because it makes an indelible change in the persons effecting the sacrament. Sure enough God uses people, but it is the Holy Spirit who reveals. Realize that it is not dogma. (Annulment says that a sacrament was not confected) Sacraments, particularly communion is withheld to protect the person not receiving from eating and drinking their own condemnation. Too many Irish accents. The Catholic Church does not make doctrine or dogma by popularity or polls. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant”. It cannot be denied that the Bible is one of the most remarkable books that exists and unlike any text that is written. Wearing the cilice has always been an optional practice for Catholics. 6. If you chemically analyze it, it will only have these same kind of explainable changes. “Then…” one should follow that Church. Yes, It’s always “you are saved by Grace, but—“. Now, now, in my neighborhood we have several Catholic churches made of yellow brick…so there. I see renewed the vinegar and gall– So for me, to walk into a discussion of the endless minutia of a system like Catholicism is meaningless and vanity. Regarding contraception – read Humanae Vitae. A Church using its Sacraments as blackmail against politicians is just too anti-Enlightenment for my tastes. It is traditionally used to whip oneself (self-flagellation) and is most commonly found in conservative religious orders. And I think I may have harbored this thought because I identified assent to a series or doctrinal propositions to be a particular Protestant trait. And their pastor lives in the trailer out back (I mean, if it’s all gonna get raptured or burned, why waste the money?). it would have stayed confidential, etc…. If it is any other issue I would suspect that Bishop might be getting a call from Rome about overstepping power (as this kind of thing would most certainly make the papers)…. The Catholic Encyclopaedia says: “Superstition ought not to be confounded with religion, however much their history may be interwoven, nor magic, however white it may be, with a legitimate religious rite”. It was a random assortment of stuff about “Why do Catholics do this and why don’t Catholics do that”, and I was about equally annoyed with all those who think we had no problems back in the Good Old Days (which amounts to a period roughly between 1940-1960) and those who think we should all be headed towards something resembling the Church in Brian Moore’s 1972 novel “Catholics” (an obscure Irish author, book made into a decent film starring a young Martin Sheen paying homage to his Irish roots in 1973) which is – in the book – in talks with the Buddhists regarding some kind of rapprochement, not to say merger. Wymynprysts are incapable of confecting the Eucharist, and one has to wonder about the priest who loathes his duty to perform “cracker worship”, but, as truly awful and horrible as it is, there may be valid Consecrations of the Eucharist amidst the dancing twits and giant puppets. I drank the refomed kool-aide a-la John Piper through every orfice possible. In other words, the Catholic Church teaches that the propositions of the Faith are also supported by sound reasons and motives of credibility. No respect for the individual to think for themselves? Ummm….don’t know how part of a word got added to my name, but it is still “Pattie” here!!! For me it is the covering up and protecting for child rapist. 1. The Church also doesn’t forbid eating meat (except on Fridays and on certain days of the year out of devotion to the Lord). And lichen adds to the holiness. Perhaps my logic is very Protestant. And a sin I am working on. Besides, you don’t know if there are any other better alternatives out there.”. The cord can be worn loosely in remembrance of the Saint for whom the cord is named, or it can be worn tight enough to cause pain, as has been the case with numerous saints in history. Once after my parents left the Catholic Church, the parish hosted an event specifically aimed at ex-Catholics and lapsed Catholics. 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